Student feedback

Ken: A brief debrief. What was your experience with this? Let’s hear it from the people who were asking the questions. We started off with the question, “What are you doing here?” And then the person who was going to continue asking questions had the four options:

“What leads you to say that?”
“That’s interesting; please tell me more.”
“How would you say that more concisely?”
and “What are some related matters?”

When you were telling the person what you were doing here and receiving these four questions, what was that like? Who would like to start the ball rolling? Nobody.

Student: I would not allow myself to leave the intellectual place. And even though I think I knew that I could go to the opening, to the place where I would open to where the questions were taking me, I refused until you walked up.

Ken: And said, “Go to the emotional!”

Student: It was interesting, you asked us to look at our body language, and I look like Rodin’s The Thinker. That’s what I was doing. And that was because I was totally caught up in the intellectual exercise.

Ken: Okay. Does this have any reflection on how you meditate?

Student: Yes.

Ken: Let’s hear from somebody else. Romy first, then Chuck.

Romy: I felt a little uncomfortable being asked these questions. I also felt that I needed to be really precise with my answers. It had to be right on. So, it took me a little bit to answer them. But yeah, I felt just a little probing.

Chuck: I felt that they kept the conversation going. When she did ask the wrong question, in the wrong way, you could see it, feel it, it had come to a screeching halt. It didn’t feel like it was the right way to ask it or answer it. And there wasn’t the right answer to it either.

Ken: So, you noticed that when it was the appropriate one, it flowed, and when it wasn’t, they screeched to a halt. Okay, good. A couple more comments from people when they’re being asked.

Raquel: We went down a road where I didn’t want to be talking about what I was talking about. I’ve gone down that road and I haven’t gotten anywhere. She did a really good job of asking the right question at the right time. As soon as she asked it, in a second, my answer moved me and I figured some stuff out.

Ken: Very good. Let’s hear Karen, last one.

Karen: I noticed that at a certain point I wanted some feedback.

Ken: Yes. And there’s a reason for that. We’ll come to it later. Let’s hear from people who were asking the questions. John, you had one, Elena?

Elena: I found one of the significant things was limitations of the questions as we were engaging. I would’ve preferred to follow some other direction and go deep, what I feel is deep. So, that was limiting. But I was also impressed by my partner’s willingness to stay with these difficult questions.

John: As I said before, my approach was really academic in that I was really fumbling with trying to know which of the four options I could ask in response to what was said. And my partner was answering, as I can tell, very sincerely. So, it was moving wonderfully to a point at which, even though I was asking those questions academically, he didn’t want to go further. I asked, “Is the reservation that it is still being asked in that way? Or is it that these are private to me?” That was interesting.

Ken: Okay. Louisa?

Louisa: I had a body sensation.

Ken: Yay!

Louisa: In the sense that the first question I answered was very short. I thought, “Oh my God, how can I make it go?” And then, suddenly, I sank into my body, and relaxed from then on. I asked questions, looked in his eyes, and it was fun. The only other thing I had to do was not to interfere. I think those questions were very good because they allowed me not to answer with my interpretation, as usual.

Ken: Right. Okay, Susan, one second, Susan. And last comment, and then we’re going to do a video.

Susan: I actually felt in the situation I was in that a couple of the questions did interfere. That they were ever so slightly critical or threatening. For example, “How could you say that more concisely?” implies that you’ve been sort of carrying on. And what leads you to say that ever so slightly? There’s just a bit of a threat.

Louisa: I think that when you listen to your heart, they just come out with the right intonation. At the right moment. That’s what happened. I remember exactly this one, not the concise, the second one you said …

Susan: “What leads you to say that?”

Louisa: Yeah, it just came natural.

Susan: Used that once and it felt wrong after I said it, and I wished I could have taken that …

Louisa: And to me, the wrong was the heart. If I could really be with what he was saying, it would come perfectly. So, I think it’s about how much you’re going on the wave.

Ken: Let me say a couple of things about these questions because they’ve come up implicitly in people’s comments. And then we’re going to do the same exercise with the same partner with the roles reversed.

As Ritva mentioned, and a couple of other people, they found the questions a little bit restrictive. What does it restrict? It restricts us getting involved. In other words, the questions carry a sense of egolessness, and that’s what makes them so effective—there’s no ego or sense of self in them. They’re just open questions.

Susan says they’re a little challenging, or can be. There’s that subtle encouragement. And as Louisa was saying, if you’re not coming from the right place, then they definitely carry that energy. So, one has to be in touch. I’ve done this in a demonstration a couple of times. Several times, but I remember two times when I crashed.

After the first one, I couldn’t figure out what went wrong, where I went wrong. Then I had an experience, not too long ago, where I crashed again. I realized I had crashed in exactly the same place with two very different people in two very different situations. It was because I was afraid to challenge.

The question that I should have asked when I went through it afterwards was, “What leads you to say that?” But something in me came up and stopped me from asking. And so the conversation went flat and didn’t go anywhere. So, both for the questioner and for the recipient, there’s a play going on internally, and it’s very important to stay in touch with that process.

Exercise instructions

Ken: So, what I’d like you to do now is to reverse roles with the same partner and do exactly the same exercise. That is to ask, “What are you doing here?” in an unloaded way. And from there you have the four questions. 1) “What leads you to say that?” 2) “That’s interesting, please tell me more.” 3) “How would you say that more concisely?” and 4) “What are some related matters?”

If anybody has suggestions for altering the wording later, I’m always open to reworking these and refining them. Go ahead. You have about 10 minutes. [Break]

Student feedback

Ken: Okay, we’ve just got a few minutes left and a fair bit of ground to cover. Let’s hear from the people who are asking the questions this time. Romy?

Romy: Well, two things. One, when I was asking the questions, I wanted more questions. There were things I wanted to ask but they weren’t exactly within the framework. Second, specifically relating to the question of “how would you say that more concisely?” I didn’t get it at first. At first I thought it just meant shorten it, but I think we got to a point where I wanted him to narrow down what it was he was saying. So, to me, I think it’s better to say, “How would you say that more precisely?” not “concisely.”

Ken: That’s interesting.

Romy: So, I think that’s the value of the question. And after we left that point, I got it. Narrow it down to exactly what you mean.

Ken: Thank you. Okay. Chuck had an interesting experience here.

Chuck: Well, the experience was that if I asked the wrong question, everything came to a screeching halt, and it just didn’t feel right. When I got down and brought the feeling more into the body, then I could come out with the correct question. Also, one more thing is that it seems like the two questions: “Would you say that more concisely?” and “Would you tell me more?”, it expands and contracts the conversation.

Ken: That’s right. Okay. Justin. Lynea first, and then Justin.

Lynea: I found myself feeling really desperate for a question about the body. I felt there was just one tool that wasn’t there.

Ken: Are you saying that Deborah wasn’t in her body?

Lynea: I think she was in her body, but there were times where I felt like things might shut down, and if I had a body question …

Ken: Okay. Justin.

Justin: It sort of was already said. I tried to manipulate the questions because you want to ask. There are so many ways to ask one question, and when you ask, “What leads you to say that?” and they answer, then you go, “Well, what leads you to say that?” You can just keep going and going and going.

And I tried to manipulate it so that I could almost ask different questions with the same question because I wanted to find out, I wanted to know. I wanted to be able to ask a different question through the same questions. It was fun, but it was very tricky. To get the information out with only four questions, I think we all did a very good job with using four questions to get information out of people. I think it worked really well.

Ken: These four questions actually do work very well. Exactly why they do is a longer discussion that we don’t have time for in this setting. But I would suggest, and I gave this suggestion to Chuck, that when you’re in the position of asking the questions, don’t try to anticipate what’s going on in the other person. Because you can never actually know that.

What you can know is what is going on in you and what is going on in your interaction with the other person. If you’re fully in that experience, you may find that something else. This is what happened with Chuck—when you moved into that, you immediately moved to a different question.

Susan: Well, there were a number of times in our conversation where it came to what I’d call a natural resting place where it would’ve been very peaceful, appropriate, to rest peacefully together with the response. And then I found myself getting anxious, “Oh my goodness, I’m supposed to be asking a question” where it would’ve been just a nice time to say, “Hmm” and just let it be.

Ken: Is there another alternative there? It seems like you had two ideas. Either we just let it rest here or I keep asking questions. Is there any other alternative?

Susan: I’m stumped.

Ken: Okay. You could explore that. Let’s hear from people who were being asked. Susan, then Chris.

Susan: I think it worked. I was the one being asked the questions and getting very peaceful after my response. And Julia just let there be silence, which I thought worked very well. Maybe she felt then compelled to ask something sooner than she might have otherwise, but that happened a few times and the silence was fine. Didn’t have to be fast, rapid fire question and response.

Ken: What’s it like to hear that, Julia?

Julia: Reassuring.

Susan: Reassuring.

Ken: Okay. Chris?

Chris: First, Kayla, I wanted to share with you how much I appreciate you talking about getting in your body and sitting. When Ken mentioned that this process was not much different than meditating, I noticed that when I was really into it, I had to sit. Then I didn’t really want to say anything because I’m not going through a good time.

But the questions that I had in my mind were: “What are you doing here?” “Nothing.’ “Please tell me more.” “There’s nothing to say.” “Could you say it more concisely?” “Yes.” And that’s it.

Ken: What are some related matters? [Laughter]

Chris: There’s nothing that exists to relate with because I’m relating with everything. But at the same time, finally, I completely destroyed and dismantled any concept of what I was doing. Then I just opened to, as you had mentioned, what was arising. And there was absolutely no separation between her and me. There was this meditative experience where I was listening to myself, and that was quite valuable.

Ken: Anybody over here? One more comment. No one. Okay. Guy or Louisa? We just have time for one. Just one.

Louisa: To me, I was very scared about being asked. That’s why I started first, I confess. It was really hard because, in some ways, I wanted to share deeply whatever was coming out of me. At the same time, he was sometimes not asking the right questions. So, that was kind of challenging. At the same time, I saw myself really trying hard to express, but not being able to sometimes. I was worried about him doing the job well.

Ken: Does that ever show up anywhere else in your life?

Louisa: Oh, always.

Ken: Alright, Gail. I’m going to ask Gail now to explain how you’re going to use this in your meditation this evening. So, pay attention, take notes, whatever.

A meditation exercise

Gail: This afternoon, you had an experience with asking a question to another person and then using the four questions to start a relationship. But tonight you’re going to use the exact same question and the four questions, but you’re going to be asking it to yourself or a part of yourself. So, the two roles that you were experiencing this afternoon you are now going to be experiencing within your meditation practice.

Fortunately, we did this because you have an experience of what it’s like when you ask a question, and movement continues, or when you ask a question, and everything stops, or binds up, or falls away. And you’ve also had the experience on the other side of when you’re asked a question, something shifts and happens. And so movement continues.

So, tonight, within your meditation, you’re going to start with the question, “What are you doing here?” But you’re going to ask that in relationship to things as they arise. I met with some of you this afternoon, and there were some physical or emotional things arising, or something you maybe couldn’t put a word on that was up. That’s when you would have that opportunity to ask the question, “What are you doing here?” And then you have these four questions to choose from, to elicit more information.

Susan: I don’t actually see how that’s very different from having been asked those same questions by somebody else this afternoon.

Gail: Can you explain a little more?

Susan: Well, what are you doing here? I don’t see that my answer this evening is going to be any different.

Gail: You’re asking it to something that arises in your meditation.

Susan: Oh, so wait until that happens and I’m aware of that.

Gail: Yes. You’re not just asking yourself as you sit down, “What am I doing here?” Wait until something arises that you’re curious about. And then you pose that question. Does that make sense?

Karen: This sounds like it’s all on your head.

Gail: Indeed. It does sound that way, doesn’t it? Okay. With your experience that you just did this afternoon, how did you know what question to ask? Was it in your head or was it another kind of experience?

Student: I had an experience when I was being asked the questions that the appropriate question would occur to me before he said it. And the only time the conversation crashed was when I was wrong in a certain way. I thought there was one missed question in the exchange. I thought that was very interesting because just as you’re describing the appropriate question, it is there, it’s not a thought, it’s there. You notice it almost.

Gail: It was really the same comment.

Ken: A further point here. We’re used to thinking that when we ask a question, we get an answer in words. When you were being asked the question, were you always in your head, or were other things going on in your experience? So, when you ask, maybe a pain shows up or maybe a thought, or an image, or a memory, and you ask, “What are you doing here?” It’s not necessarily the head that answers, or the stories. Your body will tell you, emotions will tell you. So, you listen to everything.

Gail: And they’ll tell you right before you come out with the verbal answer. That place right before you form it into a thought is where …

Ken: And so you may not actually need to form it into a thought, and if you can work that way, then you’ll never be in your head. Michelle?

Michelle: Just wanted to clarify that it’s us asking the physical sensation or the emotion, whatever it is, what it is that they’re doing here.

Ken: Yeah, and as Julia and Susan were describing, if you’re resting, you’re resting. You don’t have to stir the pot. Any questions? Is this clear? Joe, Deborah?

Louisa: The first response to the question, “What leads you to say that?” is that also an invitation to go deeper? Seems like it could be. Not necessarily.

Ken: How do you experience it?

Louisa: Probably different ways to use that question, but that’s one of them.

Gail: The questions that we did this afternoon are definitely oriented towards a conversation with someone. “Say,” “tell,” a verbal. So, be careful with those this evening. You might use, “That’s interesting, please give me more” which would get you out of looking for the verbal response. “How can I experience that more concisely?”

Ken: Yeah, I actually like the suggestion to use “precisely” rather than “concisely.”

Gail:There’s another question, John?

John: [Unclear] … which was, “What do you think you can do about it?”

Ken: I don’t recall adding that to the list, but whatever. If you find it helpful, experiment, but it may take you out of it so be careful. We’re a little late for dinner. I just want to close with a story.

A sufi story

Ken: [Paraphrasing from Honored Guests at the Banquet, Tiny Tales of Nasrudin, #123]

One day, Mullah Nasrudin was invited to a banquet. And there’s a custom in Central Asia that when a rich man had a banquet, everybody was invited.

Nasrudin showed up in his usual rags and was shown to a place right by the entrance where they were thrown a few scraps from the plates that were circulating around. After 10 or 15 minutes, Nasrudin had had enough of that. So, he left. He went back to his house and changed into his very best robes, brocade and silk and so forth, and put on a magnificent turban. He came back to the banquet.

When he came in this time, they immediately showed him to the head table and they put down all of this wonderful and beautiful food in front of him. And he started picking up the food and smearing it on his robes. And after a while, his neighbor said, “What on earth are you doing, Mullah Nasrudin?” He said, “Well, the food was for the robes, not for me.”

Have a good dinner.