In the Buddhist tradition, a sutra refers to the meeting of the teacher’s mind and the student’s mind.

October 10, 2010

A goal or a direction?

Ken: Sunday, 10th day of the 10th month of the 10th year of this century. Sutra session at Against the Stream.

Generally what I like to do in these sessions is take your questions. But the general area that I’ve been exploring recently is the way that we frame our practice—meditation practice or a spiritual practice—to ourselves. One of the distinctions I’ve been playing with is the difference between a goal and a direction.

By way of explanation, in some traditions of Buddhism, things are really goal oriented. Somewhat in the Zen tradition, it is: reach satori, or attain nirvana, or get enlightened. Not just the Zen tradition, of course. And it’s like there’s something out there, which if you can get to, then everything is going to be okay. And I certainly labored under that impression, for a very, very long time. I had the good fortune to be able to be with some of the senior teachers in the Tibetan tradition. And as I observed them in their lives—and these were people who had practiced for years in mountain retreats— and everything wasn’t okay in their lives. They still had to deal with some really thorny problems. So this idea that you attain this state in which everything is just okay, I began to suspect this might not be the case.

At the same time, in my own practice, I had some very, very serious, challenges, obstacles, whatever you want to call them. They were very, very difficult and left me in despair for quite long periods of time. I’m talking about like five, ten years, not not just a few weeks or a few months. At this point—and I can hardly believe I’m saying this—looking back now, I can say that those were really very, very challenging difficulties. What they forced me to do was find my own way through all of this stuff, because there were so many avenues of traditional practice that were just closed. I couldn’t do them at all. I could teach them to other people and they had a great time with them. But for my own practice, it was completely hopeless.

The fourth horse

Ken: I came across this passage in a book that I recommend to everybody here. If you don’t know about it already, it’s a classic in American or Western Buddhism. It’s Suzuki Roshi’s book, Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind. It’s a book you should have by your bedside. Anytime you have some confusion with practice, just open it up. It doesn’t matter where you open it up, you’ll find something useful. And one gets the impression that Suzuki Roshi gave these extraordinarily brilliant talks all the time. But I knew a very close associate of his and discovered that, as she put it, “These were gems, plucked from vast deserts of totally boring sermons.” But the gems are pretty good.

And one of these gems is called the fourth horse. Now, there’s a collection of Buddhist teachings known as the middle length discourses. I think there’s another collection called the long discourses. But there’s a lot of different teachings in the middle length discourses, and one of them is about the four horses. The four horses are described as, the first horse is the one which you tell it to gallop and it gallops. And the second horse is the one where you have to raise your whip and then it gallops. And the third horse doesn’t gallop until it feels the whip hit its skin, then it gallops. And the fourth horse doesn’t gallop until it feels the pain of the whip in “the marrow of its bones.”

Now, which horse do you want to be? How many would like to be the first horse? Of course, we all want to be the first horse. But the thing I like about Suzuki Roshi is that he looks at things below the surface. This is what he says: “When we hear this, all of us want to be the first horse.” When we can’t be the first horse, then, okay, we’ll settle for the second. And then he says, “In the scheme of things, who do you think Buddha would have more compassion for? The first horse or the fourth horse?” So it gets you thinking. And then he goes on to say that in your practice you’re going to find that the fourth horse is more useful to you, because it is in your struggles that you will find your “firm, way seeking mind.”

Now, how many of you have experienced really challenging difficulties in your lives? Am I the only one? I need to qualify this. You’ve experienced really challenging difficulties and somehow came through them. Anybody here? Okay. Now, when you look back on that, not fun, I agree, but did you learn anything from it? We do. Nietzsche said this back in the 19th century: “What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.” And unfortunately, it’s true.

There’s another version of this. How many of you saw a movie called Damaged? It’s about, I don’t know, ten years ago. There was a wonderful line in it. I won’t go into the plot of the movie but there’s a wonderful line: “Damaged people are dangerous because they know they will survive.” So it’s another version of this. When you’ve gone through something really, really difficult and painful, and you’re still there, you know something. This is not an intellectual knowing. This is what Suzuki Roshi is talking about when he says, “your firm, way seeking mind.”

This is so different from thinking in terms of goals. “I’m going to achieve this, and then I’m going to get there, and then I’m going to get there.” And just to make it very clear, a direction is an aim, a way that we go. But there’s no specification of an endpoint. A goal is something that you can ask the question, “Did I get there or not?” It’s like football, the goal is when the football breaks the plane of the goal line. That’s a goal.

So, just a very simple example, a direction for me would be like, “I’m going to go north.” A goal would be, “I’m going to get to San Francisco.” Now, to get to San Francisco I have to go north. But it’s a big difference of, “I’m going to go north,” and, “I’m going to get to San Francisco.” Because if I want to get to San Francisco, I’d say, “Okay, I achieved my goal. Now what?” But if I say, “I’m going to go north,” when I get to San Francisco, well, maybe I will go up to Portland, or maybe I will go to Seattle, Vancouver, etc. One can go north a very long way.

Non-self as a way of experiencing

Ken: The way that I’ve come to understand practice, while there are very important experiences and abilities that do come up and we do develop in the course of our practice. The actual course of our practice is a direction towards a different way of experiencing the world. This came home to me in an email I got last week from someone, it may have been someone here, I can’t remember. The person started off by saying, “I understand this teaching of non-self in Buddhism, but what dies? Does the self die, or if you’re awake, does awakening die? What dies when you understand non-self? And I understand that everything is an illusion.”

These are traditional ways of talking about things. And I wrote back to him. And I’d just like to plant this idea in you. Non-self isn’t something you attain. It’s a way of experiencing the world. And every one of you has experienced the world this way, if only for a few moments. How many of you have experienced being so completely engaged in something that you’ve lost all track of time? It could be sports, it could be music, it could be a conversation with a friend of yours or a family member that has experienced some deep loss. But you’re just there and there’s just no sense of time. How many of you have experienced something like that? That’s not self.

When you look back on that experience, what was it like? Let’s pass the microphone around for this. Now just to be clear, these are recorded. So you don’t have to give your name, rank, and serial number. What I found is I get many emails expressing great appreciation for this kind of interaction because very few people actually put this stuff out there. Thousands of people listen to it, so this is an act of generosity on your side. Now I’ve totally intimidated you. [Laughter]

Student: I’ve definitely experienced it a lot of times, just in conversation with somebody. There’s a difference between just hearing somebody and actively listening. I think that, especially when somebody is going through a tough time, when you’re just there in the moment, interactively listening to them, and the eye contact is there, and the engagement is there, the next thing you know, you look at the clock and hours have gone by, and it only seems like it was just a moment.

Ken: And in that conversation, how aware are you of yourself?

Student: I’m completely aware.

Ken: Of yourself?

Student: I’m in the moment.

Ken: Yes, but what I’m talking about is how aware are you of like, I am doing this?

Student: Not at all. You’re doing it without …

Ken: That’s what I’m pointing to. Yeah. Thank you. Anybody else? There are several other hands that went up.

Student: One thing comes to mind just because the shift was so dramatic when I came out of it. I was just walking around. This was years and years ago, we were, I think, hitchhiking to the beach, and between rides. And we were just wandering around, and it was warm out in the streets, and there was just a feeling of well-being. It was a timeless feeling of well-being. It was just warm and I was just looking at the road. And then something came up later, and I came out of it, something that agitated me, and that’s when it stopped. But during that time there was no awareness that there was any me experiencing. It was just being.

Ken: So this is the first point, this way of experiencing the world is very accessible to us. It can come because things are going extremely well and we just open. The sense of self drops away in the case that you were describing. Or, it comes because we’re facing a challenge, and we’re under great pressure, and we just have to bring all our attention to it. And our concern with our self drops away.

Creating the conditions for a different way of experiencing

Ken: Contrast that with, what’s like when you have a headache? How quickly does time pass when you have a bad headache? It creeps by, right? And what about when you’re bored. How quickly does time pass when you’re bored? These are the contrasting shapes when we’re very, very conscious of ourself. So, one way of looking at meditation is you’re creating the conditions in which you can experience things a different way.

What’s very interesting here, is that, if you try to experience things a certain way it doesn’t work at all. If you try to, I want to not experience myself, it doesn’t work at all. That’s why we have to approach this indirectly. And we do this by—what I was suggesting this morning—just resting in the experience of breathing. So what I’d like to do now is just start with questions. And the way that I found most effective to do this is just to pass the microphone around, and everybody gets their turn. If I say, “Do you have any questions?” You all sit there like a bunch of dead fish and nothing happens. So let’s start here.

When the mind is completely crazy

Student: Hi there. I have a question. When you explained the manic section of not being able to focus on what you’re doing? How do you get to there? I mean, I’ve been locked up before, but my head is going so fast. I can’t get within to the point where self is selfless, right?

Ken: Yeah. So when you’ve got masses of thoughts going on, what do you do then? Okay. I’m going to give you two pieces here. The first piece is, I find quite effective, but it’s often a little challenging. That is, when you have masses and masses of thoughts going on, ask, “What am I experiencing in my body?” Have you ever done this?

Student: Yeah. Insight meditation, looking within.

Ken: Yes. But not really needing to label it as this or that. It’s not exactly the noting thing. Because one of the things, general principles, is that, when we have masses of thoughts, there’s usually tension in our body. Does this ring a bell? Okay. So there we are; we’re sitting, and you just experience the body. It may take a little while, but you’ll gradually become aware of where the body is tense. And, what we want to do at that point is get rid of the tension. But what I’m suggesting here is you don’t actually try to get rid of the tension. You just keep experiencing the body and you experience the body being tense.

One of the ways that works with this is to say to yourself, “Crown of the head, soles of the feet,” and experience them both simultaneously. And everybody, you can all try this right now. Crown of the head, soles of the feet, experience both simultaneously. And when you do that, just be aware of your whole body. And now you rest in that experience. If there are thoughts going on, that’s fine, you don’t really worry about them. Then just keep coming back to that sensation of your whole body. Crown of the head, soles of the feet. And as you do that over and over again, you’ll find your relationship with thinking changes. So that’s one approach.

The second approach is, again, something from Suzuki Roshi. He says, “When you try to corral your mind, it basically acts like a wild horse. You put a wild horse in a corral, it kicks the fences, and tries to get out.” That’s what our mind is like, right? What happens if you put a wild horse in a big open meadow?

Student: Freedom. You won’t be kicking around.

Ken: Well, it’ll gallop around for a while, and then it’ll stop, and just start grazing the grass. So another approach is—and I remember one of my colleagues in the three-year retreat did exactly this, I’ll tell you about it in a minute—you just give up. And think, my mind is completely crazy today. I’m just going to sit here. I’m not even going to try, it can do whatever it wants. And you just sit there and let your mind go completely crazy like that wild horse.

In the three-year retreat that I did, at one point we had all of these, what we call deity meditation. These are really complex, elaborate meditations, which involve visualization, and mantra, and reading all kinds of prayers. We had a month on one, and three months on another, and two months on another. And we just went through a whole series of them, and then we got to this one, which is regarded as a really important one. One person in the retreat said, “I’ve had it.” And every meditation session he’d read through the prayers associated with the practice, then closed the book. And he would just sit. He didn’t do any mantras, he didn’t do any visualization, he just sat there. And he said he felt a closer connection to that deity than any of the others that we had done, because he had stopped trying, and he just let things settle. We so want to control our mind, but sometimes—

Student: Self will, being willful.

Ken: Yeah. So sometimes you just go, “Okay, all right mind; you’re crazy today. I’m just going to sit here, and you can be as crazy as you want.” Okay? All right. Everybody gets a question. We’ll come back to you. Okay?

When to keep pushing and when to stop

Student: Okay. I guess, the question I’d like to ask goes a little bit back to what you were saying about challenges that we face and how those challenges, when we look back on them, are growing experiences. My question is, how do we recognize when we become a bit addicted to the challenge, or when we have an opportunity to step away from a challenge that is just too much. Should we take that step?

Ken: When to stop trying?

Student: When to stop trying too hard, I guess. Or perhaps maybe a little bit more practically, when we face adversity in life, should we just keep pushing into this path because we know it contains a path of adversity for us and it’s beneficial for struggle? Or do we say, I don’t need to be pushing myself down that path now.

Ken: This is a very important question. Let me respond to it in two or three different contexts, because I think they’re all important. First, I want to talk about meditation. Some traditions are very strict about posture. So you hold your posture very strongly, or you really focus the mind very carefully. The principle I found that I pay attention to here is, as long as there’s some resilience or flexibility, then you can keep pushing. But when your mind becomes completely hard, or your body becomes completely hard—it’s like rock meets bone—then you’re probably doing yourself damage. That’s a point to step back a bit or reexamine how you’re doing it. That’s very important in meditation practice, so that you don’t get this really hard, inflexible mind, because that’s a brittle mind. It’s not helpful.

Now, the same thing really applies to the body. If you’re engaged in a physical activity by pushing, making efforts, we actually make the body stronger. But one doesn’t build up strength and resilience just by making effort. You build up strength and resilience by making effort, stepping back, allowing some recuperation, and then making effort again. So it’s on again, off again. That’s what builds up the strength and resilience in the body and in other areas as well. This goes back to what I was saying about direction. So you keep making the effort, and some days you have to ease off a bit, but then later you come back. If you have this idea of, I’m just going to do this, it’s very much goal oriented, then you can get really hard about it. That’s not so helpful.

The rule of three

Ken: In other areas of our life, like career, or relationships, or things like that, it’s a little more difficult to tell when you’ve reached that rock meets bone place. I guess one principle that I use there is what I call the rule of three. Now, the rule of three is very simple. When you find yourself in the same dynamic three times, with another person particularly, it means you’re both stuck in some kind of reactive pattern. You have a choice at that point.

Let’s take the context of relationships, for instance. If you’re in a relationship with someone and they do something and it doesn’t work for you and you say, “Hmm, let’s not do that.” Or, “I prefer if you didn’t do that.” If they do it three times and there’s been no change, then you have a choice. You either accept that as part of the relationship, or you really have a discussion about it with a view to changing it. A very serious discussion, because you’ve got to change the dynamics of working, because just making the request hasn’t worked. Or, you suffer. Those are your three choices.

Student: Or you leave?

Ken: Well, that’s changing the dynamic. That’s the most drastic change in the dynamic, that you leave. Yes. The same thing can apply to career or work situations. Another thing you can bring in here is something from the Theravadan tradition of Buddhism. Can I experience this? As long as you’re willing to experience all the discomfort, etc., then the situation is workable. This goes back to your mind getting hard. It becomes “No, I can’t do this anymore.” Then it’s time to change. Does that help?

Student: It does. Okay, I’ll apply the rule of about a thousand.

Ken: No, apply the rule of three.

Student: Right, well at this point it feels like about a thousand.

Ken: Okay. Right. Going back this way. Let’s pick up this gentleman.

Letting experience soak in

Student: The experience of non-self or being in the zone, another way to put it, I feel that I’m in a variety of states for short periods of time playing music, playing with my daughter, taking a walk. I guess it’s when you sort of wake from that, it’s what happens after that’s the problem. Sort of remembering that, I don’t remember that, that you can orient yourself towards that. If that is the direction.

Ken: You can nurture it. So, when you find yourself dropping like that, for instance, if you’re playing with your daughter, and you find yourself, “Oh, I’m just here.” Then just be there completely, don’t try to do anything with it. Don’t actually try to extend it. When I say, nurture it, another way would be to say you can let it soak in. And that’s basically what we’re doing in meditation is creating conditions for this kind of way of experiencing to arise and letting it soak in. And as it soaks in, then it becomes more and more available to us in other areas of our lives.

Practice in a stressful system

Student: Good morning. This is a whole different question, but I find that I can feel peaceful and find all these moments on the weekends and after work. I’m a high school teacher. But as soon as I drive onto that campus, I just feel myself tensing up and the stress starting. I do find that meditation helps me have more compassion for my students. I work at a continuation high school, so it’s even more challenging.

Ken: Continuation high school?

Student: Continuation. So some of my students have been in juvenile hall or gotten kicked out of regular comprehensive high schools. So I just need help, just maintaining mindfulness at work or just not letting the stress of the whole high school get to me.

Ken: What do you find most stressful? Is it the interaction with the kids, or is it the system, or is it the environment, or what? I mean, can you pick it apart?

Student: I think it’s probably maybe the system.

Ken: The system. Yeah. That’s what I suspect.

Student: The administration.

Ken: I kind of suspected that, 101 petty insults, petty insults from the administration.

Student: It’s just the whole system. Everyone reads the LA times, what’s going on with state testing and such. I just feel like it’s not student-centered. It’s all the politics. And I have to service my students, yet deal with all the politics. So just how to separate it, and keep true to myself, without losing my job.

Ken: Yes, this is potentially quite difficult, because you know what your students need, and how you can cultivate and develop them, and even inspire them. But what you’re required to meet the various protocols, and goals, often doesn’t allow you to do what is needed. [Pause] What age students are you working with?

Student: Sixteen to eighteen.

Ken: Okay. I’m just going to throw this out. You can tell me if this sounds even in the ballpark. I think if you’re honest with your students, and you probably are, but if you’re just straightforward, honest with the students, letting them know where you are in your support for them. And yet, you’re all engaged in the system, and certain things have to be done. So, your intention is to help them negotiate the system, so that they can move forward in their lives. And that is what life in the high school consists of.

They’re looking to you, I imagine, for some kind of inspiration, and some kind of meaning, in something that hasn’t treated them very well. And, they’re probably fairly adept at manipulating the whole thing. So, to try to pretend that the system is benign I just think would close down real communication. Yet the system has to be respected and they know that too. So I think if you work within that, there is the personal caring, which I sense from you, as well as, you’re a spokesperson for the system, and you’re just very honest about that. Then I think you will experience less internal tension. And choose your battles carefully. There are some times when you may want to go up against the administration and say, “No.” But you need to choose those carefully and strategically, not over stuff that you can find a way through. Does that help?

Student: Yes it does.

Ken: Okay, good.

Finding your own way through practice

Student: I wanted to go back to what you were saying earlier about, when your practice was in a funk for years at a time. I just wondered how you dealt with that, because I feel like I’m in a similar situation.

Ken: Well. I’m going to quote a poem to you, which comes from that period. It’s by Stephen Crane.

In the desert
I saw a creature, naked, bestial,
Who, crouching upon the ground.
Held his heart in his hand,
And eating of it.
I said, “Is it good, friend?”
“It is bitter-bitter,” he answered;

“But I like it
“Because it is bitter,
“And because it is my heart.”

In the Desert, Stephen Crane

So it was a very, very difficult period of many, many years. A couple of things. This began when I was in the three-year retreat, and I was in a great deal of pain, physically and emotionally. There were many days when I just couldn’t do the regular program. And I relied very much on a particular meditation technique in the Tibetan tradition known as taking and sending, or tonglen, which consists of taking in the suffering of others and giving away your own happiness. And it says, this is a great meditation to do when you’re suffering, because now you’ve got something really to work with. And I was suffering a lot, so that was all I could do, and it was just like one breath at a time.

And I remember one day, it was spring. It was the first day where the sun was really shining. Going outside my room into the courtyard of the meditation retreat and feeling utterly at peace, even though I was having such a miserable time. And it’s probably my first experience of finding peace in the depths of pain. That was very important. I won’t say that everything was cool after that, it wasn’t, but It opened that possibility up for me. When we look at our experience of being in a funk about practice and having a lot of difficulty, it’s not continuous. It does go up and down. That’s something to pay attention to.

The second piece, which is very important, and I referred to this earlier, it made me question very, very deeply, why was I practicing? Because nothing was working and I don’t know whether I’ve ever been able to articulate a response to that. I don’t think I can put it into words. But it’s something I came to feel, whatever it is—this goes back a bit to your question—this is my path for better or worse. Maybe I’m stuck at the base of this mountain for the next century. Okay, but that’s where it is. Now, can I explain that any better? Not really, but it was a felt sense.

Then the third thing was, I had to let go of so much of what I’d been told—this is the way to practice—because just none of it worked. I had to explore other possibilities. And something would open up a little bit here and something else would open up a little bit there. So it was a way of finding my way through some kind of ridiculously complex, and yet very, very narrow maze.

It reminds me a little bit of Rilke in Letters to a Young Poet, in which he says to this young poet, “Only be a poet if you absolutely have to. If you can do anything else with your life, go and do it. But if you can’t, then this is what’s involved.” So that may not be a very cheery thing to say, but there you are. Does this help?

Student: No it does, because that’s what I’ve been doing. I just keep reminding myself this is part of the process. Yeah. You know, that is the path.

Ken: But it goes back to what I was saying. For many years I just wrapped my head against a brick wall. And as I’ve said here a couple of times, a very significant piece of that was because I just did not pay any attention to my body. My body just said, “Okay, Ken, you can go and get enlightened if you want. I’m not coming.” And that’s when I realized, “Hmm, I got a problem here.” So a lot of our difficulties and challenges are actually based in the body. Another way of looking at difficulties is something is calling for attention. And we may have to listen very, very carefully before we can discern what is actually asking for that attention. Okay. Anything else? No follow up? Okay.

Resting in the experience of breathing

Student: I’m pretty new to meditation. Can you say more about how you started? Not to focus on the breath, but to relax into the breath. I think that’s what you had said, can you talk more about that?

Ken: Yes. Well, let’s just do this together. Okay? Right now, just sit and focus on the breath and just do that for like half a dozen breaths. You’re going to focus on the breath. [Pause] Okay, stop that. Now, I’d like you to try resting in the experience of breathing for half a dozen breaths. You’re sitting there, you breathe, we do it all the time. Just rest in that experience. [Pause] Okay. What was the difference for you, if any?

Student: It seemed that it was more whole body.

Ken: Which?

Student: Resting with the breath.

Ken: With the breath. Actually I’m saying in.

Student: In, in.

Ken: Yeah. I’m very fussy about prepositions. Okay. You say it’s more whole body. In which do you feel more present?

Student: The second one.

Ken: Yeah. Now, that’s what I mean about resting in the experience. Because you do feel the whole body. In fact, you’re aware of the whole room. And yet the mind is resting. Now, it’ll be distracted, there will be thoughts, and things like that. Sometimes you’re going to find it helpful to introduce a bit of that focusing because it energizes the mind. And that’s particularly if you’re slipping into a bit of dullness, like you’re relaxing too much. But like this gentleman here who asked me, when there’s masses of thoughts going on, that’s almost always because there’s tension in the system. That’s why I like to emphasize resting because it allows that tension to dissipate on its own. So in practice there’s going to be a going back and forth between these two approaches—a bit like riding a bicycle. But through this you gradually refine the quality of your attention. Okay. Does that help?

Student: It does. Thank you.

Ken: You’re very welcome.

When practice reaches a plateau

Student: No burning questions.

Ken: Well ask a non-burning question. I mean very simply, if you don’t have any questions about your practice, it probably means you’re not working hard enough at your practice. So take the opportunity.

Student: Well, actually, about two weeks ago, my doctor gave me some antidepressants because I’d been feeling sort of down for quite a while, sort of in a low, low grade. For the first two days I felt euphoric, which I understand. I did some reading, it sort of happens. Then I thought, at that point I thought, what was I doing meditating for so long?

Ken: Okay. Fair enough. How much exercise do you get?

Student: Quite frequent, almost every day.

Ken: Oh, okay. Vigorous exercise?

Student: Particularly lately, I’ve been swimming.

Ken: Okay. That’s the most important thing for depression I found, is vigorous exercise on a regular basis. It’s a good question, because the dynamics of depression and the dynamics of meditation are very close. And meditation can, in some circumstances, feed depression. That’s not a good thing. That’s one of the reasons why I was asking about exercise. Okay. Why do you meditate?

Student: Well, I guess the question came up recently. I mean, I’ve been meditating for years and years. Well, I had a good experience initially meditating and I felt more close to myself, my sort of natural self, I guess. And so I wanted, to cultivate that. And it just became a helpful part of my life.

Student: Okay, good.

Ken: And, now why?

Student: Well, admittedly, I came today because I’d been feeling not euphoric. So I guess the question comes to mind. If my mind was, or is, challenged by biochemistry, and therefore if it at some point, let’s say tomorrow, feels stronger, then I suppose the question of meditation comes into play. Whereas today it feels less strong and more confused, so I arrived.

Ken: What do you want to get from your practice?

Student: Probably nothing different than what I want from … I don’t know if I want something from my practice so much as I want something in my life.

Ken: That’s fine. Yeah. What’s that?

Student: Which is balance, and peace, and health.

Ken: What form of meditation practice do you use?

Student: I’ve been coming here for years, so—

Ken: But when you sit down yourself to meditate, you meditate on a daily basis?

Student: Almost daily.

Ken: What do you do when you when you sit?

Student: I focus on my breath. I may do some metta. It probably depends in part what I’ve taken from being here. So if I had a helpful session, I may use whatever was sort of propagated and talked about.

How deep do you want to go?

Ken: Okay. Here’s a possibility. You’ve reached a plateau in your practice. You’ve been meditating for years, it’s been helpful to you. And now there’s something missing. That right?

Student: Yeah.

Ken: So you’ve actually achieved what initially you wanted from meditation. If you continue to practice you now need to set a different intention.

Student: Work harder perhaps? Maybe not work harder, but sort of Investigate deeper.

Ken: Well, it’s about forming a different relationship with your life. As you said, it’s what you want from life. Okay, so you say balance, peace, health. Well you’re reasonably healthy it seems. Balance—what is out of balance in your life? Start exploring that. Where am I disturbed in life? And actually engage with these areas. This is what I mean about pushing practice another step further, because you’ve gone like this, now you’re here. And it’s getting like this because the practice is actually taking you deeper, but you may not have the accompanying intention to go deeper.

Student: I’m sorry, the what?

Ken: The accompanying intention to go deeper. And that’s why it’s a little iffy right now, because, how deep do you want to go in your life? How deep do you want to go in your pursuit of balance? And one can go very, very deep in these things. And there are challenges and there are also rewards in both cases.

Student: Okay. Thank you.

Ken: Behind you. This I think may be our last. Go ahead.

Conflict, motivation, and least harm

Student: I’ve been experiencing an adversarial relationship at work. And I’m just dealing with balancing compassion for the person, who seems like my adversary, and also realizing that I may need to engage in something that may cause harm to that person that seems like my adversary. And causing harm is something that I want to avoid doing. And yet, when it’s a zero-sum situation, it sometimes seems inevitable.

Ken: What kind of work do you do?

Student: I edit books.

Ken: In your interaction with this person, what do you find difficult to experience?

Student: I don’t know if there’s anything I find difficult to experience. It’s a matter of behaviors, or actions, that have taken place in a matter of escalating conflict. So the feelings are not so much an issue as the actual experiences and facts.

Ken: Well, he or she does something, which has brought you into conflict. In those moments of conflict there was an experience in you that you found very difficult to experience. But you didn’t want to experience this inside. So you ended up in the struggle with this other person. And I’m curious as to what that feeling was.

Student: Well, I did feel offended, maybe victimized, or wounded, or treated unfairly. So I’ve accepted that. And yet, at the same time it’s not enough to just stop there. There needs to be action, and consequences, and things like that.

Ken: Why?

Student: Well, because it seems like a zero-sum situation, where there can’t be two winners, or it’s inevitable that one will win and one will lose.

Ken: I remember when my teacher was here many, many years ago, we did a retreat up at Big Bear. And an actor asked him the question, wasn’t he doing harm if he tried to do the best in his audition, because then he would prevent somebody else from getting the acting job. Zero-sum game again. Okay? My teacher, who didn’t know anything about Hollywood, and acting, or auditions, I can assure you, he was at that point a 75 year old Tibetan lama. He said, “It’s a question of motivation. You go into the audition with the intention of doing your best. Not with the intention of defeating the other people, but with the intention of doing your best. And what comes from that is what comes from that. No harm.” So does this apply in your situation?

Student: Partly I think it does. But what I feel is that in order to defend myself I have to cause harm to the person that’s attacking me.

Ken: Ah. Again, the rule of three applies. Really, you’re in a conflict situation. We don’t have any time left, so let me just go over this very quickly. The first stage of conflict is pacification, where you try to talk things out. And you try that in three different ways if you can. Then you have to move to the second stage of conflict, which is enrichment, in which you bring in other resources. It may be a mediator, it may be rearranging the office so you aren’t bumping into each other, whatever. If you aren’t able to work out the conflict at the level of enrichment, then it’s magnetization or compelling. Use the situation to compel a resolution. Then if that’s not successful, as this gentleman noted earlier, then you change. You don’t determine which level the conflict goes to, the person you’re interacting with does.

If your intention is to resolve the conflict, in the best way possible all the way through, then you do what you have to do. But sometimes boundaries have to be drawn. And when you draw a boundary and you say, “Please don’t step over this line because these are going to be consequences,” then the other person is taking the action, which precipitates the consequences. So you have to be very, very clear in your intention. You’re not doing it to hurt the other person. You’re doing it in order to create a good work situation.

Now this gets very tricky. You have to be as clear as possible. But there is differences in motivation and intention there. They will lead you to take the least action, to take whatever action causes the least amount of harm or injury to the other person. And you won’t get carried away by it and that’s very important. Okay.

Student: Thank you.

Ken: Okay. We’ve run out of time. Sorry we didn’t get to all of you. Next time, I’ll start over here. I’ll be back here on the second Sunday in November, November 12th or something, I can’t remember what the date is. So I look forward to seeing you there. And just by way of closing, I’d like to say a few lines. And so if you could just sit for a moment.

Goodness comes from the practice now done.
Let me not hold it just in me.
Let it spread to all that is known.
And awaken good throughout the world.

[Gong]

Enjoy the rest of the weekend and see you next month.